Joel:
All right, So Ian and I will talk for about half an hour, but it's an intimate crowd. So if you've got questions at any time, if they are important questions, just put up your hand or shout out. Otherwise at a certain point in the conversation, we'll you know turn over to you guys specifically. That's an amazing work.
Ian:
Thanks. Thanks a lot. I haven't seen it for like ages, actually. I've completely forgotten about parts of it. I am thinking what do certain sections actually mean again? like, what's going on there, you know?
Thanks. Thanks a lot. I haven't seen it for like ages, actually. I've completely forgotten about parts of it. I am thinking what do certain sections actually mean again? like, what's going on there, you know?
Joel:
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot to take in, that question of what does it means is kind of a vexed. Sure. It's hard to know how much we should try to bring the work into coherence sort of. I actually just wanted to start with a fairly pragmatic question because we can go down a lot of rabbit holes or rather wormholes. I was just wondering if you could take us through like what's involved in the production of a work like this, like, how did you go about making it?
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot to take in, that question of what does it means is kind of a vexed. Sure. It's hard to know how much we should try to bring the work into coherence sort of. I actually just wanted to start with a fairly pragmatic question because we can go down a lot of rabbit holes or rather wormholes. I was just wondering if you could take us through like what's involved in the production of a work like this, like, how did you go about making it?
Ian:
Well, sure, I should say upfront, I've got to thank Phil Brophy for doing such a phenomenal job on the sound design, like it really, really makes the work. It sounded good in here. It sounded great. I'm kind of like this frustrated wannabe filmmaker, but not really a filmmaker, I am just an artist working with video but I love movies so I've always kind of gravitated to ideas of narrative or fucked up kind of narrative stuff at least.
Well, sure, I should say upfront, I've got to thank Phil Brophy for doing such a phenomenal job on the sound design, like it really, really makes the work. It sounded good in here. It sounded great. I'm kind of like this frustrated wannabe filmmaker, but not really a filmmaker, I am just an artist working with video but I love movies so I've always kind of gravitated to ideas of narrative or fucked up kind of narrative stuff at least.
Worm Pornography originally started out being much more ambitious with lots of characters, lots of locations planned but all on a micro budget. But then COVID happened and it put a kibosh on all of that. So I had to kind of think, OK, how am I going to do this project in between lockdowns and all the covid measures. So that severely compromised everything. I had this script of all this dialogue and lots of the phrases and language and that would conjure up different kinds of imagery, things like 7-11 Slurpees and mutant YouTube cat videos etc so I stated to build a crude mind-map of images in my brain and went from there.
Joel:
So you wrote the script and monologue first
So you wrote the script and monologue first
Ian:
I had all these phrases and passages of narration floating around for ages so that was the basis for everything yeah, my process of working is one of just layering and layering and layering. As you can see, there's kind of a OCD aesthetic to the whole thing, this kind of obsessive kind of layering of imagery and compositing imagery of worms on people's heads and mutant bodies. I am very much drawn to this kind of aesthetic.
I had all these phrases and passages of narration floating around for ages so that was the basis for everything yeah, my process of working is one of just layering and layering and layering. As you can see, there's kind of a OCD aesthetic to the whole thing, this kind of obsessive kind of layering of imagery and compositing imagery of worms on people's heads and mutant bodies. I am very much drawn to this kind of aesthetic.
Joel:
I mean, it's not that clear as a spectator to try to understand where synthetic images end and real images begin which is appropriate for you're sort of entangling those things.
I mean, it's not that clear as a spectator to try to understand where synthetic images end and real images begin which is appropriate for you're sort of entangling those things.
Ian:
Absolutely, there's a constant slippage between simulated and real material in the work
Absolutely, there's a constant slippage between simulated and real material in the work
Joel:
what's that sort of process like for you in terms of working with that kind of construction
what's that sort of process like for you in terms of working with that kind of construction
Ian:
obviously I had no budget, so it's kind of like, what can I do here that's going to keep me interested and hopefully keep an audience interested. While playing around with that shift of the real and the virtual or whatever. The video contains really overtly obviously fake effects, which really announce themselves to the audience as very artificial effects. This isn't real. This is a fabrication, this is a construction, which in a way that's kind of where we're at at the moment with a lot of this AI stuff, this complete kind of ambiguity and confusion over what is real. So it was kind of riffing off some of that kind of thinking, this heightened kind of plastic artificial aesthetic. So hence Phil's sound, suited that really, really well, this kind of hyper-real, unreal, cartoon feel to things was very much central to the work.
obviously I had no budget, so it's kind of like, what can I do here that's going to keep me interested and hopefully keep an audience interested. While playing around with that shift of the real and the virtual or whatever. The video contains really overtly obviously fake effects, which really announce themselves to the audience as very artificial effects. This isn't real. This is a fabrication, this is a construction, which in a way that's kind of where we're at at the moment with a lot of this AI stuff, this complete kind of ambiguity and confusion over what is real. So it was kind of riffing off some of that kind of thinking, this heightened kind of plastic artificial aesthetic. So hence Phil's sound, suited that really, really well, this kind of hyper-real, unreal, cartoon feel to things was very much central to the work.
Joel:
Let's talk about the aesthetic a little bit more. the kind of images that you create because they are so striking and kind of dark and disgusting and sort of, you know, erotic
Let's talk about the aesthetic a little bit more. the kind of images that you create because they are so striking and kind of dark and disgusting and sort of, you know, erotic
Ian:
Sexy
Sexy
Joel:
Yeah, and also repulsive to a degree so I'm just wondering, if you could say a little bit about the formation of your aesthetic. Like where does it come from?
Yeah, and also repulsive to a degree so I'm just wondering, if you could say a little bit about the formation of your aesthetic. Like where does it come from?
Ian:
I've just always gravitated towards body horror type stuff for like the last 30-40 years. I very much came of age of around, the whole VHS video thing, in Australia. I used to live above a video shop. I used to work in a video shop. I used to consume copious amounts of VHS horror. This is a huge defining thing for me, and at the same time I was also discovering elements of contemporary art and cinema and particularly experimental cinema and video and people like Stan Brakhage and people like that it all comes from this huge melting pot of body horror and experimental film and video
I've just always gravitated towards body horror type stuff for like the last 30-40 years. I very much came of age of around, the whole VHS video thing, in Australia. I used to live above a video shop. I used to work in a video shop. I used to consume copious amounts of VHS horror. This is a huge defining thing for me, and at the same time I was also discovering elements of contemporary art and cinema and particularly experimental cinema and video and people like Stan Brakhage and people like that it all comes from this huge melting pot of body horror and experimental film and video
Joel:
The Stan Brakhage autopsy film is an obvious reference here
The Stan Brakhage autopsy film is an obvious reference here
Ian:
That's a huge influence for me yes. I am interested in this kind of mingling and mixing of experimental tendencies with more body horror, base level kinds of references for sure. In some ways they seem incompatible but then in other ways they are totally related.
That's a huge influence for me yes. I am interested in this kind of mingling and mixing of experimental tendencies with more body horror, base level kinds of references for sure. In some ways they seem incompatible but then in other ways they are totally related.
Joel:
I was thinking about how that sort of abject imagery as part of 80s industrial culture and 80s video horror gets sort of taken up in the early Internet as well on websites Like rotten.com and things like that.
I was thinking about how that sort of abject imagery as part of 80s industrial culture and 80s video horror gets sort of taken up in the early Internet as well on websites Like rotten.com and things like that.
Ian:
That's very true, actually going back to the early 80s there was lots of imagery from that industrial, noise music period like SPK with their imagery of surgery and that kind of thing I was very much aware of that, and it possibly had an influence on my young brain. So much of this material now stuff exists online there is so much disturbingly fucked up material out there it's almost like parts of the Internet or corners of the Internet are truly just devoted to this.
That's very true, actually going back to the early 80s there was lots of imagery from that industrial, noise music period like SPK with their imagery of surgery and that kind of thing I was very much aware of that, and it possibly had an influence on my young brain. So much of this material now stuff exists online there is so much disturbingly fucked up material out there it's almost like parts of the Internet or corners of the Internet are truly just devoted to this.
Joel:
But now the most disgusting thing about the Internet is not the body horror, but just the ideological, pervasive kind of atmosphere. I'm just going to refer to my notes I wrote down all the worm references that I could find out. So I've got worm simulation, worm reality, worm media, worm intelligence, worm dimensions, worm pornography, of course, worm signals, worm frequencies, worm censorship, industrial complex, worm cinema and worm Internet. So I mean, let's talk about the worm why why the worm?
But now the most disgusting thing about the Internet is not the body horror, but just the ideological, pervasive kind of atmosphere. I'm just going to refer to my notes I wrote down all the worm references that I could find out. So I've got worm simulation, worm reality, worm media, worm intelligence, worm dimensions, worm pornography, of course, worm signals, worm frequencies, worm censorship, industrial complex, worm cinema and worm Internet. So I mean, let's talk about the worm why why the worm?
Ian:
I was really thinking about the worm as a form of malware. The worm as a kid of information parasite, like a contagion that infects computer systems and breaks them down and, and kind of pollutes them in a way. So this kind of idea of the worm as a polluting entity in a sense. So there is a dominant theme here along with some of my other recent work of the body being controlled or manipulated by forces outside of itself, So this idea of worms as a metaphor and kind of having an effect on the body.
I was really thinking about the worm as a form of malware. The worm as a kid of information parasite, like a contagion that infects computer systems and breaks them down and, and kind of pollutes them in a way. So this kind of idea of the worm as a polluting entity in a sense. So there is a dominant theme here along with some of my other recent work of the body being controlled or manipulated by forces outside of itself, So this idea of worms as a metaphor and kind of having an effect on the body.
Joel:
You describe the worm as a as a fertilising event So it's a force that kind of breaks things down that decomposes bodies, but also technology.
You describe the worm as a as a fertilising event So it's a force that kind of breaks things down that decomposes bodies, but also technology.
Ian:
Yes Exactly.
Yes Exactly.
Joel:
Is the worm a kind of positive or a negative force in the film? because I kind of get the sense that you are sort of rooting for the worm like in a certain way
Is the worm a kind of positive or a negative force in the film? because I kind of get the sense that you are sort of rooting for the worm like in a certain way
Ian:
Yeah, I like the worm, I like what it's doing, trying to survive. The idea of a fertilising event thats very much referencing JG Ballard, and the notion of the car crash as a kind of catalyst or technology as a transformative thing. I was also thinking what would pornography be like for a worm? You know, from a worm's point of view? it would most likely be a decaying and rotting human body, So it's kind of playing around with this as a theme also.
Yeah, I like the worm, I like what it's doing, trying to survive. The idea of a fertilising event thats very much referencing JG Ballard, and the notion of the car crash as a kind of catalyst or technology as a transformative thing. I was also thinking what would pornography be like for a worm? You know, from a worm's point of view? it would most likely be a decaying and rotting human body, So it's kind of playing around with this as a theme also.
Joel:
Let's talk about the narrator a little bit. Who is that narrator? Is he just a storyteller or something else?
Let's talk about the narrator a little bit. Who is that narrator? Is he just a storyteller or something else?
Ian:
He's like some kind of scientific researcher who's trapped in a kind of post apocalyptic setting. He's isolated in a 7-11 toilet. So he's trapped in there retelling the details of an experiment that's occurred an experiment thats gone wrong. He himself has become infected and is slowly going through all these different kinds of stages of infection and transformation. He's decomposing and morphing into something else. He's losing his mind basically. With his brain being infected with worms this very much drives the narrative of the film. I also like the idea that the audience is also being infected in a way with this barrage of visual and sounds as things increasingly go off the rails.
He's like some kind of scientific researcher who's trapped in a kind of post apocalyptic setting. He's isolated in a 7-11 toilet. So he's trapped in there retelling the details of an experiment that's occurred an experiment thats gone wrong. He himself has become infected and is slowly going through all these different kinds of stages of infection and transformation. He's decomposing and morphing into something else. He's losing his mind basically. With his brain being infected with worms this very much drives the narrative of the film. I also like the idea that the audience is also being infected in a way with this barrage of visual and sounds as things increasingly go off the rails.
Joel:
I love the 7-11 logo. it's great in the film as a kind of notional location, yeah, but it's also a great sort of plundering act to just leave it there throughout the film
I love the 7-11 logo. it's great in the film as a kind of notional location, yeah, but it's also a great sort of plundering act to just leave it there throughout the film
Ian:
Yeah, I think it started out as a bit of a mistake actually. I thought, imagine if the whole video was sponsored by 7-11, this kind of weird symbiotic relationship that we have with 7 11s, they're kind of everywhere in the urban landscape, we kinda coexist with them, you know? We have this kind of that parasitic relationship with them which I thought was interesting.
Yeah, I think it started out as a bit of a mistake actually. I thought, imagine if the whole video was sponsored by 7-11, this kind of weird symbiotic relationship that we have with 7 11s, they're kind of everywhere in the urban landscape, we kinda coexist with them, you know? We have this kind of that parasitic relationship with them which I thought was interesting.
Joel:
Could you extend a little bit more about that kind of the parasitic relation to consumption?
Could you extend a little bit more about that kind of the parasitic relation to consumption?
Ian:
I wanted to kind of ground the film in something real because there are lots of elements of unreality and AI hallucination like imagery. So I wanted to kind of ground it within some kind of real context. And so the idea of a consumer culture reference like 7-11 made sense for that, and I guess that kind of parasitic nature of pop culture, infecting and hijacking people's brains in different ways and manipulating us.
I wanted to kind of ground the film in something real because there are lots of elements of unreality and AI hallucination like imagery. So I wanted to kind of ground it within some kind of real context. And so the idea of a consumer culture reference like 7-11 made sense for that, and I guess that kind of parasitic nature of pop culture, infecting and hijacking people's brains in different ways and manipulating us.
Joel:
I mean it has shades of like George Romero using the shopping centre as a backdrop
I mean it has shades of like George Romero using the shopping centre as a backdrop
Ian:
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Joel:
Let's talk about AI just a little bit. Is the treatment of AI in your work and in this work, a sort of an acceleration of certain tendencies of unreality or is there other things driving your work and AI
Let's talk about AI just a little bit. Is the treatment of AI in your work and in this work, a sort of an acceleration of certain tendencies of unreality or is there other things driving your work and AI
Ian:
It's interesting to look at the video now which I completed 18 months ago and the AI landscape has become much more sophisticated in a way. I have an ongoing Instagram project of these daily fucked up AI bodies, AI as a kind of parasite in a way. I'm much more interested in this kind of unreality of AI where it's not realistic, and not photo realistic. I think so much of photo realism in AI now is like this kind of aesthetic metric of nerd culture or something. It looks so realistic, therefore that is equated as being of value. Most of my AI generated stuff produced in a version of Stable Diffusion that's like 3 years old. So it's really kind of gnarly and grungy and dirty. but I kind of like that. I like the fleshy grittiness of it, I like the idea of AI gone wrong, where AI imagines bodies wrong. AI body hallucinations or transhumanism gone wrong Where It's all gone to shit.
It's interesting to look at the video now which I completed 18 months ago and the AI landscape has become much more sophisticated in a way. I have an ongoing Instagram project of these daily fucked up AI bodies, AI as a kind of parasite in a way. I'm much more interested in this kind of unreality of AI where it's not realistic, and not photo realistic. I think so much of photo realism in AI now is like this kind of aesthetic metric of nerd culture or something. It looks so realistic, therefore that is equated as being of value. Most of my AI generated stuff produced in a version of Stable Diffusion that's like 3 years old. So it's really kind of gnarly and grungy and dirty. but I kind of like that. I like the fleshy grittiness of it, I like the idea of AI gone wrong, where AI imagines bodies wrong. AI body hallucinations or transhumanism gone wrong Where It's all gone to shit.
Joel:
Yeah. our bodies turned inside out, etc Where does a film like Worm Pornograohy fit in this context? I mean, because one of the things that was sort of mentioned earlier was this rejection of binaries between high and low culture. I mean, this is a video. But it's also a kind of cinema, it's kind of genre.
Yeah. our bodies turned inside out, etc Where does a film like Worm Pornograohy fit in this context? I mean, because one of the things that was sort of mentioned earlier was this rejection of binaries between high and low culture. I mean, this is a video. But it's also a kind of cinema, it's kind of genre.
Ian:
Yeah, it's genre orientated. I mean, it's a horror sci fi kind of premise. I'm a bit cynical of short films really. I don't think of myself as a filmmaker at all and part part of the problem with short films for me is that they're so god damn heavy on plot at the expense of everything else, and they're so wannabe kind of feature length films. And I didn't want to do that. I want to do something that was just kind of more mutant basically. Which is a bit hard to define what it is exactly. It means it doesn't really slot into that kind of conventional film festival crowd or that audience. It's much more mutant
Yeah, it's genre orientated. I mean, it's a horror sci fi kind of premise. I'm a bit cynical of short films really. I don't think of myself as a filmmaker at all and part part of the problem with short films for me is that they're so god damn heavy on plot at the expense of everything else, and they're so wannabe kind of feature length films. And I didn't want to do that. I want to do something that was just kind of more mutant basically. Which is a bit hard to define what it is exactly. It means it doesn't really slot into that kind of conventional film festival crowd or that audience. It's much more mutant
Joel:
I know what you mean, it's kind of a work of media theory, obviously, and then also an essay film at the same time, but the aesthetic is very particular and may not connect with those audiences?
I know what you mean, it's kind of a work of media theory, obviously, and then also an essay film at the same time, but the aesthetic is very particular and may not connect with those audiences?
Ian:
Yeah. I mean, that academic film crowd won't necessarily like my particular body horror aesthetic. I'm sure some people see my stuff and they just dismiss it straight away as being this kind of puerile body horror stuff. I get that, but that's their loss.
Yeah. I mean, that academic film crowd won't necessarily like my particular body horror aesthetic. I'm sure some people see my stuff and they just dismiss it straight away as being this kind of puerile body horror stuff. I get that, but that's their loss.
One thing that was also going through my mind with the video is something that Harmony Korine recently said where he's moving more away from conventional narrative stuff into more sensorial kind of experiences. like he's recent films like Baby Invasion and Aggro Drift I find these really interesting where they are just kind of cinema purely just as a sensory kind of experience, where there isn't much plot there, just a real basic basic kind of framework. So some of this thinking of audio visual sensory experiences interested me with Worm Pornography, I like the idea of the audience being trapped in some kind squishy worm/body like machine, thats what I was going for.
Joel:
It's not like old school avant-garde film it's more kind of hypermedia.
It's not like old school avant-garde film it's more kind of hypermedia.
Ian:
It's hypermedia and hyper manic. Yeah, and in many ways some of this new Korine stuff is partly boring. Sometimes you drift in and out of it and then at other moments you tune back in
It's hypermedia and hyper manic. Yeah, and in many ways some of this new Korine stuff is partly boring. Sometimes you drift in and out of it and then at other moments you tune back in
Joel:
They are a kind response to some post Internet attention span absolutely
They are a kind response to some post Internet attention span absolutely
Ian:
Yeah, you're kind of half distracted as you're watching it. You're kind of looking at your phone and stuff like that. So it's playing on those kinds of things which I think are kind of interesting, a new way of viewing films in a way.
Yeah, you're kind of half distracted as you're watching it. You're kind of looking at your phone and stuff like that. So it's playing on those kinds of things which I think are kind of interesting, a new way of viewing films in a way.
Joel:
There are a lot of orifices in Worm Pornography like holes opening up and then footage of eyes and that are sort of oozy and then they sort of become portals to somewhere else.
There are a lot of orifices in Worm Pornography like holes opening up and then footage of eyes and that are sort of oozy and then they sort of become portals to somewhere else.
Ian:
Yeah, holes as kinds of video portals and dimensional kind of shifts and stuff like that. Or the confusion between film reality, with virtual reality and worm simulation. So, yeah, these kinds of different portals or entry points to various different locations. Like, how do you move from one location to another when you can't physically go and shoot lots of locations because of lockdown restrictions so the idea of wormholes or portals kind of functioned for that. So we just travel through these wormholes.
Yeah, holes as kinds of video portals and dimensional kind of shifts and stuff like that. Or the confusion between film reality, with virtual reality and worm simulation. So, yeah, these kinds of different portals or entry points to various different locations. Like, how do you move from one location to another when you can't physically go and shoot lots of locations because of lockdown restrictions so the idea of wormholes or portals kind of functioned for that. So we just travel through these wormholes.
Joel:
Agreed. OK. Quick questions for Ian or comments or directions you'd like to see the conversation go or anything like that?
Agreed. OK. Quick questions for Ian or comments or directions you'd like to see the conversation go or anything like that?
Ian:
I just wanted to quickly mention some of the conspiratorial stuff that plays into the work
I just wanted to quickly mention some of the conspiratorial stuff that plays into the work
Joel:
Yes, because it was produced during that period of COVID, Q Anon and anti vax stuff etc
Yes, because it was produced during that period of COVID, Q Anon and anti vax stuff etc
Ian:
There's all sorts of stuff going on in there. The conspiratorial stuff has been an ongoing thing in some of my work in the past. I think conspiracies are firstly entertaining and are interesting for artists to explore because they're kind of like alternative narratives. They're alternative belief systems, which is ultimately what art is kind of doing in a way. It's applying this different kind of lens onto the world. The whole conspiratorial thing of brains being hijacked by various conspiracies for example, I was interested in, also I think as a narrative engine, it's kind of like so much conspiracy stuff is based on the idea of: this happened, then this happened, then this, then this, then this. So that plays out into this kind of interesting structure in the video. I think there are real nut job conspiracy theories out there. And there are conspiracy theories that aren't, I mean, the origins of COVID emerging from a lab for example, isn't necessarily a nutjob conspiracy, but, you know, Hillary Clinton running a child trafficking operation out of pizza shop probably is. There's a real tendency to want to conflate everything together as if all conspiracy theories are the same thing I think but like lots of things there's nuance there.
There's all sorts of stuff going on in there. The conspiratorial stuff has been an ongoing thing in some of my work in the past. I think conspiracies are firstly entertaining and are interesting for artists to explore because they're kind of like alternative narratives. They're alternative belief systems, which is ultimately what art is kind of doing in a way. It's applying this different kind of lens onto the world. The whole conspiratorial thing of brains being hijacked by various conspiracies for example, I was interested in, also I think as a narrative engine, it's kind of like so much conspiracy stuff is based on the idea of: this happened, then this happened, then this, then this, then this. So that plays out into this kind of interesting structure in the video. I think there are real nut job conspiracy theories out there. And there are conspiracy theories that aren't, I mean, the origins of COVID emerging from a lab for example, isn't necessarily a nutjob conspiracy, but, you know, Hillary Clinton running a child trafficking operation out of pizza shop probably is. There's a real tendency to want to conflate everything together as if all conspiracy theories are the same thing I think but like lots of things there's nuance there.
Joel:
There's also, you know, paranoia as a method, sure. As a way of sort of generating scenarios and auditioning them not in order to assert their reality, but to.
put them out there
There's also, you know, paranoia as a method, sure. As a way of sort of generating scenarios and auditioning them not in order to assert their reality, but to.
put them out there
Ian:
Yeah, and I think conspiracy theories, there's probably an element of truth in some of them at some point. that's why they manifest in culture, like so there is probably an element of truth in some of this stuff. After I finished the video I read that RFK jnr had a brain worm, so this idea of worms infecting brains is out there as a real condition and is central to the video.
Yeah, and I think conspiracy theories, there's probably an element of truth in some of them at some point. that's why they manifest in culture, like so there is probably an element of truth in some of this stuff. After I finished the video I read that RFK jnr had a brain worm, so this idea of worms infecting brains is out there as a real condition and is central to the video.
Joel:
What was it like making this during the COVID?
What was it like making this during the COVID?
Ian:
Everyone was experiencing things as groundhog day, which kind of plays into the idea of the video to a degree, this kind of manic energy and repetition in the work, we were all so absorbed in digital screens during that time our bodies merging with screens in some ways, the whole lockdown experience, as problematic as it was, it actually helped infuse the work with a certain aesthetic I'm not necessarily saying it's a positive thing to be in lockdown, but there's something about working within those constraints that was actually kind of beneficial in a way for the work.
Everyone was experiencing things as groundhog day, which kind of plays into the idea of the video to a degree, this kind of manic energy and repetition in the work, we were all so absorbed in digital screens during that time our bodies merging with screens in some ways, the whole lockdown experience, as problematic as it was, it actually helped infuse the work with a certain aesthetic I'm not necessarily saying it's a positive thing to be in lockdown, but there's something about working within those constraints that was actually kind of beneficial in a way for the work.
Joel:
Do you mean attuning to the atmosphere of kind of panic on the one hand, and then kind of boredom?
Do you mean attuning to the atmosphere of kind of panic on the one hand, and then kind of boredom?
Ian:
Sure, I also think in the early days of COVID so much about the virus was being mediated by screens and news broadcasts with infection rates and infographics of virus behaviors, digital modeling and stuff like that. Early on I had the feeling so much of the pandemic was really happening in the media more than my immediate reality. I found that kind of fascinating this kind of mediation of a biological contagion. So this very much influenced the video in many ways.
Sure, I also think in the early days of COVID so much about the virus was being mediated by screens and news broadcasts with infection rates and infographics of virus behaviors, digital modeling and stuff like that. Early on I had the feeling so much of the pandemic was really happening in the media more than my immediate reality. I found that kind of fascinating this kind of mediation of a biological contagion. So this very much influenced the video in many ways.
Joel:
Ok, Any questions from the audience?
Ok, Any questions from the audience?
Audience:
Gorgeous looking film, Ian, like it's just a sort of shameless exploration of prettiness.
Gorgeous looking film, Ian, like it's just a sort of shameless exploration of prettiness.
Ian:
Thanks.
Thanks.
Audience:
It doesn't seem disgusting. I mean I can see how a bunch of people would possibly be disgusted by some if it however, it made me wonder what does disgust mean for you?
It doesn't seem disgusting. I mean I can see how a bunch of people would possibly be disgusted by some if it however, it made me wonder what does disgust mean for you?
Ian:
interesting question. Well with this work and other work of mine I don't really see it as abject or disgusting. In a way It's kind of almost cartoon abjection, it's really a simulation of abjection a representation of that stuff. I get as repulsed as the next person over things like blood tests and stuff like that, So, yeah, I'm a very normal person in that regard. I kind of like to be confronted by this kind of material I like to have the shit scared out of me there is something wonderfully visceral and thrilling about that. Horror is a necessary part of life I think, and I really interested in this notion of the confrontation of the body and increasingly technology is kind of facilitating this bodily confrontation in many ways. like for example with virtual reality, many times that I've experienced VR, I actually feel sick like I get nauseous, I get motion sickness. So it's like on one hand it's like this amazing new technology, and on the other hand, it's actually grounded in this base level confrontation of the body and the feeling that I've been poisoned or something.
interesting question. Well with this work and other work of mine I don't really see it as abject or disgusting. In a way It's kind of almost cartoon abjection, it's really a simulation of abjection a representation of that stuff. I get as repulsed as the next person over things like blood tests and stuff like that, So, yeah, I'm a very normal person in that regard. I kind of like to be confronted by this kind of material I like to have the shit scared out of me there is something wonderfully visceral and thrilling about that. Horror is a necessary part of life I think, and I really interested in this notion of the confrontation of the body and increasingly technology is kind of facilitating this bodily confrontation in many ways. like for example with virtual reality, many times that I've experienced VR, I actually feel sick like I get nauseous, I get motion sickness. So it's like on one hand it's like this amazing new technology, and on the other hand, it's actually grounded in this base level confrontation of the body and the feeling that I've been poisoned or something.
Joel:
I thought it was interesting how the people with the VR headsets in the video, their bodies had manifested physical extensions through the VR googles
I thought it was interesting how the people with the VR headsets in the video, their bodies had manifested physical extensions through the VR googles
Ian
Yeah, that's actually part of a VR work that I made a few years earlier called Meatspace that I've kind kind of cannibalised some of those pieces to use as props in this video, kind of flesh extended VR headsets with parts of their brains connected to the headsets.
Yeah, that's actually part of a VR work that I made a few years earlier called Meatspace that I've kind kind of cannibalised some of those pieces to use as props in this video, kind of flesh extended VR headsets with parts of their brains connected to the headsets.
Audience:
It was really great watch, thanks. I'm really curious about when you mentioned you hadn't seen it for a while as well, you're seeing it again now with fresh eyes and when I saw in the credits 2023. I had that visceral feeling like, oh, that was a bad time. And it does feel like we reached a kind of peak fever dream with conspiracy narratives at this time with like accelerated going on at that point. And 2025 seems different, right? Seems like we are quite exhausted by that period?
It was really great watch, thanks. I'm really curious about when you mentioned you hadn't seen it for a while as well, you're seeing it again now with fresh eyes and when I saw in the credits 2023. I had that visceral feeling like, oh, that was a bad time. And it does feel like we reached a kind of peak fever dream with conspiracy narratives at this time with like accelerated going on at that point. And 2025 seems different, right? Seems like we are quite exhausted by that period?
Ian:
Well, I think there's still this heightened sense of unreality that's going on in the world, you know, like, Trump is president or whatever, like just the sheer unbelievability of what's happening. Which I find kind of fascinating because that kind of plays into this idea are we in a simulation? which is an idea I am developing for a new video work I am shooting it in these old abandoned asylums using actors that have had these experimental brain implants. And so they're not quite sure what's real and what's a simulation. And they then have to go through this process of relearning how to use their bodies again
Well, I think there's still this heightened sense of unreality that's going on in the world, you know, like, Trump is president or whatever, like just the sheer unbelievability of what's happening. Which I find kind of fascinating because that kind of plays into this idea are we in a simulation? which is an idea I am developing for a new video work I am shooting it in these old abandoned asylums using actors that have had these experimental brain implants. And so they're not quite sure what's real and what's a simulation. And they then have to go through this process of relearning how to use their bodies again
Joel:
These sort of speculative scenarios are always only slightly removed from the real. Do you know what I mean? They're kind of like a veneer of a sort of fiction wrapped around something, a new layer we're just utterly familiar with.
These sort of speculative scenarios are always only slightly removed from the real. Do you know what I mean? They're kind of like a veneer of a sort of fiction wrapped around something, a new layer we're just utterly familiar with.
Ian:
Yeah, Well, I remember this during lockdown, I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of this. It was almost like, is this real? We actually have to stay in our house. Like, is this real? it was kind of like a real sense of unreality about what was happening, which in some respects I think is still continuing. It's just in a different sphere, and particularly around this whole emergence of AI and the complete kind of breakdown of like what is real and what is unreal. I've got lots to say about AI, but that's a whole other conversation.
Yeah, Well, I remember this during lockdown, I'm sure I'm not the only one to think of this. It was almost like, is this real? We actually have to stay in our house. Like, is this real? it was kind of like a real sense of unreality about what was happening, which in some respects I think is still continuing. It's just in a different sphere, and particularly around this whole emergence of AI and the complete kind of breakdown of like what is real and what is unreal. I've got lots to say about AI, but that's a whole other conversation.
Joel:
Any final questions or comments? Should we bring it to a close. Yep, no worries. Thanks everyone.
Any final questions or comments? Should we bring it to a close. Yep, no worries. Thanks everyone.